Warning: political thread

[Foe]

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

[FONT=Tahoma]With Wall Street floundering and billions of dollars evaporating, oh ok. As a personal example, my parents' savings have been 85% wiped out, so RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO you.

You mean 85% of their investments. A 401k or any other financial vehicle that carries the risk of loss is an investment, not savings. A savings account at an FDIC insured bank, even if the bank fails, is sound so long as its under 250k.

Thread fails, thinly veiled attempt by op to push bad party talking points. Also, what if the GOP had gotten their way and partially privatized SS a few years ago aka investing hundreds of billions of it into the market. Those free market zealots are rly smrt huh?

[Snow Bunny]

Originally Posted by Foe

You mean 85% of their investments. A 401k or any other financial vehicle that carries the risk of loss is an investment, not savings. A savings account at an FDIC insured bank, even if the bank fails, is sound so long as its under 250k.

Their savings were invested. I'm talking about savings in the traditional sense of the word, not in the market sense.

[Winterclaw]

under 100K, savings at an FDIC insured bank are protected.

Having a partially privitized SS does involve a little risk, but the government can't afford to keep paying for SS and Medicare. Now here's the thing about markets, over time they'll go back up. So yes there would have been a little trouble today, but within a few years, the losses would have been recovered.

[Foe]

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

under 100K, savings at an FDIC insured bank are protected.

Thank you for correcting me, i had always thought it was 250k for some reason. As a young person just having started his career 100-250k might as well be a trillion. Im sorry to hear about your parents losses Snow Bunny i didnt mean to sound so cold. Winterclaws response ties into one of the reasons why so many of our parenys were left so exposed to such recklesness.

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

. Now here's the thing about markets, over time they'll go back up. So yes there would have been a little trouble today, but within a few years, the losses would have been recovered.

This was how the 401k was sold to the American public. These plans saved corporation truck loads of many as the old system of robust pensions was damned expensive for them. Of course in the global market of today the pension/retirement packages of yesterday would be a tremendous competitive disadvantage. The argument between the two becomes a philosophic one as your basically left with what kind of society do want for yourself. Ah yes, i had a point, "the market always bounces back" a: is a probability but not a fact b: this argument describes a game of musical chairs. Its fun unless the music stops while you were just getting ready to sit. Investors who needed those savings in the short term and don't have a decade to recoup their losses. Coupled with the return of a realistic real estate market many of these folks whom were counting on their 401k/market investments and their property wealth are in trouble.

Read this opinion while posting here. A short but interesting look into the god of commerce and his idealogical past.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/1...754/931/640790

[Lord Sojar]

No FDIC has been increased to 250k. You were correct initially Foe.

[Winterclaw]

Was it inreased recently?

[Turbobusa]

yes, like 2-3 weeks ago iirc

[ty3c]

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Winter, the point is, the upper class can afford a tax increase. The middle class needs to be stimulated, in order to have more purchasing power, thus stimulating businesses, which in turn have more money to invest. While this is a very simplified view of the scenario, the fact is, sometimes economy basics are what drive economy; Keynesian economics 101! When said large companies make money from middle bracket Americans using their liquid assets as purchasing power, the rich make more money, offsetting the increased taxes. Our economy is, in part, in this slump because of extremely reduced retail and service spending. This is the reason you are seeing a huge decrease in specific companies across the stock market. Starbucks is a great example; they closed 600+ stores, their stocks have gone down the tubes, because people do not have the money for high end coffee.

To accuse Obama of socialism because he wants to stop privatizing that is destroying us (because Capitalism is good until it interferes with government) We are not even truly capitalistic, considering the buy out. The buy out is the most socialistic thing this country has done in a longtime... Regulations must be put in place to keep greed from destroying most of the country. This is why communism doesn't work, and this is why letting capitalism run the countries basic functions doesn't work either; greed.

And at the comments Michelle made... those were put through the republican spin machine a few too many times... political spin is horrible... Same with William Ares! Who CARES?! Obama knows him, they don't go play polo together every weekend and go out for guys night out on Fridays. The fact is, as Michelle pointed out recently, that if you are involved in Chicago politics, you have some connection with William Ares; period, end of discussion. His former pastor is a fruit cake... Obama clearly denounced what he said, and has disowned him. Reverend Wright is a nutjob... that I will agree with. Obama isn't the best candidate we have ever had, but he isn't the worst. Frankly, no one involved in the major political scene right now is a good choice, because of our current situation. Obama is, however, smart. Religion is a silly concept in politics, and should be BANNED from relations with said system. It has no place in decision making, and it is insane to think it had one to begin with. Being logical and analytical is superior on all fields when dealing with politics. Emotion is nice, but leave it at the door please. Obama can use his mind, not his feelings. That is biggest flaw I see with the current incarnation of the Republican party; they are so damn religious and ethical. Ethics be damned! Humans will only evolve if we remove petty ethics from things, and strive to improve our technology. I am technocrat, so that is my thought process. We should be thinking about bettering ourselves through technology, not religion.

I am by no means saying religion in and of itself is bad. Please do not take it that way. I am simply stating that putting it into politics stops progress, which infuriates me.



Do WHO a favor? You? Your friends who agree with you? The republican party. No one can tell what is going to happen. This attitude that Obama is evil has got to go though. Telling people not to vote for someone because you relate them to one of the most horrible people and mass murderers in history is wrong. Tell people not to vote based on hard facts and logic, not on ideals or concepts. This illogical madness must stop.

Using an analytical view of things, one can see the only logical choice is Obama. He is the greater of the two once you run things through the equations. Quite simply put; it comes down to logic. You either elect a man who uses numbers and logic or a man who uses religion and conceptualism as their base. These are facts... John McCain is smart, but he uses too much feeling and emotion, too much idealism, and is far too abstract to help with the current situation. He would be a good president under different circumstances, however. What we need is someone who is cold and exacting in their operation, who uses statistics and measurement. Obama is known for doing that. McCain is known for using ethics and morals, which vary from person to person. We need logic, not emotion.

Idealism is great, until it gets in the way of progress. A systematic and aggressive push into technology is what is required. We must make the US high tech, low ethic. In an ideal world, we wouldn't have people angry with anything that pushes society forward, but we don't live in that world. We live here, and we must put our ideals aside for the time being, and use fact, and by that means, logic. Logic gets results, idealism gets ratings. If half of this country could wise up and get over these morale blockades, we would have a life expectancy of 150, extremely advanced nano/pharmaceutical technology, and a cutting edge technocratic infrastructure. Nuclear power, BUILD IT. Screw the damn "green" alternatives! Build the nuclear power plants, and use that power to further research and development of "greener" solutions. Onward with progress!

Not me a favor, EVERYONE! obama is not ready for the job, in fact he knew that four years ago he said and I qoute

"I'm not running for president in 2008, I am not even thinking about that"

yet now he is trying to win a job he CAN NOT DO.

he may not even be a united states born person!

we cannot risk such a man who also favored this bill called the H.R 1955, if you have not looked it up do it it is the thought crimes bill and basicly states if the GOV thinks you disagree with them you can be jailed,fined, and such without due process.............

[ty3c]

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

A few things.

First is that even though you are okay with your taxes up, maybe someone else isn't okay with his taxes going up. It isn't fair to the other guys who either don't want their taxes to go up or can do more good for the community if their taxes were lower. If you want to pay more, you have that option... the IRS will let you overpay. You can even return your refund to them.

Second of all its questionable that raising taxes will help, right now there isn't enough money flowing (reason for the bailout) and taking more money out of the pockets of businesses that are either hurting or can't get credit isn't going to help them any. Another thing to keep in mind is that amount of revenue our government is more closely linked to GDP than tax rate and increasing taxes could slow GDP growth.

Third is it's no business of yours if wealthy people are generous or not. They earned their money, they deserve to do with it as they wish. If congress wants more money, they can get a part time job on their days off and give that money to the government. You shouldn't forget either that as of now, the rich are already paying most of the taxes. Something like 50% of all taxes are paid by the top 5%. I also see taxes as slavery and while a small amount is necessary, raising taxes too high is immoral. When the 16th amendment was created, the people trying to push it on the nation said it wouldn't go higher than 4%. Some of the people who were against it were scared it would reach a rather low by today's standards 20%.

Fourth, letting people keep what they earn will encourage them to earn more, do more work, create more jobs, etc than if you handcuff them with taxes. One of the big reasons why Reagan was for tax cuts is because when he was in the movie business he was told not to make more than 3 films a year by his fellow actors because anything more than that and the government would end up taking all his pay from those extra movies.

Fifth, many of the social programs are unconstitutional and should be religated to the states to each have their own as they see fit. The 10th amendment religates anything not specifically empowered to the federal government to the states. Thus if the people of California want a social security or medicare, it should be the state of California who creates its own program and is responsible for its upkeep and finance, not the federal government. If they want universal healthcare, that's fine as long as only California pays for it for the benifit of California residents.




Aside from genocide, unless you count abortion, I wouldn't be surprised if Obama and Hitler aren't that dissimular in terms social programs. I mean Hitler was a pro-union enviromentalist who was heavily favored by the college crowds and full believed in a state-run education system (where he got his hitler youth from). I have a book with some of his social policies, maybe I'll dig out the info. Initially the communists in Germany voted for him because they thought his socialist policies were a good step towards creating a communist Germany as opposed to the other guy.

how can I also put this: obama is a racist, he listen to a preecher who preeched HATE of white people, and he also clearly stated in his own book that he will stand with the muslims over us.

that isnt bs, it's true!

[Foe]

Originally Posted by ty3c

how can I also put this: obama is a racist, he listen to a preecher who preeched HATE of white people, and he also clearly stated in his own book that he will stand with the muslims over us.

that isnt bs, it's true!

I wish people had the courage to say what they think. If you dont want to vote for a black person, fine, thats your choice. Sad how people like your self have to speak in code. The "Real" America[ns], he is a "elitist", hes a "Muslim", hes a terrorist blah blah blah.

You do realize Sarah Palin is on youtube having some batcrap crazy 3rd Wave Christian Army preacher casting anti witchcraft prots on her, right? Logic tells us for Palin to be protected from witchcraft means one must believe in witch craft...which means one believes in witches.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl4HIc-yfgM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0SFERgx6JE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV3dPLy1_WQ



Heres the kicker, being a rational person i wont make this jump in logic. I realize that its likely Sarah Palin does not believe in witches and warlocks. OBVIOUSLY our personal and professional associations are not the sum total of ones self. Of course you know this too.

Heres a few for McCain just to premept your retarded and uninformed response. There are like 30 of them.
http://video.google.com/videosearch?...um=4&ct=title#


If you dont support the taxation of the top 5% fine, thats a valid argument. If you like McCains tax credit health care plan better than BO's plan fine, also a debatable topic. If you peddle absurdities because your to much of a coward to speak your true mind. Well, you most likely do not make 250k a year and the gop counts on you to be so dumb you will vote their party patrons interests instead of your own.

Dont worry, us progressives in a few short weeks begin the process of stitching the country back together and dragging people like yourself(kicking and screaming of course) to a safer,healthier,happier existence.

[Winterclaw]

Voting for a black person because he is black is just racist. I wonder how many black (and white) people will be stabbing Dr. King's dream in the back this weekend because of it.

Anyways, I'm not going to vote for him because IMO, he's going to turn this country into a worse SNAFU than it already is. We he fought to keep my state's vote from counting, he became a fascist tyrant in my book.

[ty3c]

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Voting for a black person because he is black is just racist. I wonder how many black (and white) people will be stabbing Dr. King's dream in the back this weekend because of it.

Anyways, I'm not going to vote for him because IMO, he's going to turn this country into a worse SNAFU than it already is. We he fought to keep my state's vote from counting, he became a fascist tyrant in my book.

exactly, it interests me how these obama supports cant come up with a single valid reason to attack me other then "im a racist and wont admit it" im not a racist, I fear obama is NOT born in america, it is a proven fact as of now he REFUSES to unseal his birth records.

and 2nd, the media has made a great women like sarah palin into looking like a dumb stupid lady who knows nothing, if people would just step outside of the NBC,CBS,FOX, and others they would find that palin is a good person, and a smart one

mccain inst the best choice, but he's the only one we got that proves he was born on a U.S naval base, Obama, where are you born?: this has yet to be proven, if we elect someone whos honor and commitment is not with our country then we have a nightmare

on the flip side if he proves by UNSEALING his birth records that was indeed born in america, then I will be just fine with him being the leader of the free world

oh BTW: there is 8 lawsuits seeking PROOF of birth in america about Obama, and thus far Obama has still REFUSED to unseal his birth records.

[ty3c]

Originally Posted by Foe

I wish people had the courage to say what they think. If you dont want to vote for a black person, fine, thats your choice. Sad how people like your self have to speak in code. The "Real" America[ns], he is a "elitist", hes a "Muslim", hes a terrorist blah blah blah.

You do realize Sarah Palin is on youtube having some batcrap crazy 3rd Wave Christian Army preacher casting anti witchcraft prots on her, right? Logic tells us for Palin to be protected from witchcraft means one must believe in witch craft...which means one believes in witches.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl4HIc-yfgM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0SFERgx6JE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV3dPLy1_WQ



Heres the kicker, being a rational person i wont make this jump in logic. I realize that its likely Sarah Palin does not believe in witches and warlocks. OBVIOUSLY our personal and professional associations are not the sum total of ones self. Of course you know this too.

Heres a few for McCain just to premept your retarded and uninformed response. There are like 30 of them.
http://video.google.com/videosearch?...um=4&ct=title#


If you dont support the taxation of the top 5% fine, thats a valid argument. If you like McCains tax credit health care plan better than BO's plan fine, also a debatable topic. If you peddle absurdities because your to much of a coward to speak your true mind. Well, you most likely do not make 250k a year and the gop counts on you to be so dumb you will vote their party patrons interests instead of your own.

Dont worry, us progressives in a few short weeks begin the process of stitching the country back together and dragging people like yourself(kicking and screaming of course) to a safer,healthier,happier existence.

Foe, you're an idiot

[mrmango]

Lol @ all these personal attacks by the most authentic looking troll I've seen.

[ty3c]

Originally Posted by mrmango

Lol @ all these personal attacks by the most authentic looking troll I've seen.

this is a heated issue

attacks happen.

[Foe]

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Voting for a black person because he is black is just racist. I wonder how many black (and white) people will be stabbing Dr. King's dream in the back this weekend because of it.

Assuming all black people voting for BO are doing so solely to elect a black man is as dumb as the McCain campaign counting on white American men(me) to be ignorant bigots and that white American women who supported HC just needed a woman to vote for and it didnt matter who it was. These shallow assumptions are costing them the election.

Yeah, a person of mixed ethnicity being elected President would make MLK cringe if he were alive today....

Did you really write this? I mean this thought didn't trigger any red flags before it rolled down to your fingers and onto your keyboard?

Originally Posted by ty3c

I fear obama is NOT born in america, it is a proven fact as of now he REFUSES to unseal his birth records.

http://cdn.factcheck.org/imagefiles/...ertificate.jpg
just to be fair
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactchec...president.html

Originally Posted by ty3c

Foe, you're an idiot

probably

Its not that i think people like yourself are "idiots". Its impossible to articulate a sound argument when all you do is blindly regurgitate propaganda custom fit for you by a room full of phd's. None of these arguments are your own and its ironic i know where and by whom they were created and you do not.

[Snow Bunny]

40% of the population pays 2.9% of taxes, while 10% of the population pays 50%.

That's RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up. Obama wants to make 10% pay 70%.

I just don't agree with that, despite the fact that I will be voting for him.

[ty3c]

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

40% of the population pays 2.9% of taxes, while 10% of the population pays 50%.

That's RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up. Obama wants to make 10% pay 70%.

I just don't agree with that, despite the fact that I will be voting for him.

another idiot.

[Winterclaw]

Did you really write this? I mean this thought didn't trigger any red flags before it rolled down to your fingers and onto your keyboard?

Not really. If voting for someone because his skin color is racist, then voting for someone because his skin is black is racist as well. King wanted people to be judged by what they do and not as a condition of their birth. It is my opinion that there will be blacks voting for him at least in part because of his skin color and whites voting for him either as a make up gesture to blacks or else to keep from being called racist.

If you look at the democratic primaries, he wasn't that different from Clinton or Edwards in his positions. I'm looking at the leftist huffington post now and when the article was written, Obama got 80-90% of the black vote if his numbers are right. I know I'm begging the question here, but from a more neutral standpoint, if their policies were similar (Hillary moved more to the center during the campaign which might have hurt her some), what is so different between Clinton and Obama? Some of it may be Clinton backlash, but I can't think of anything in particular that the Clintions did to cause that much backlash from black people off the top of my head.

That's what I'm trying to get across.

I know to a lot of democrats his personality and charsima are a factor, but this guy has no experience so he's going to screw up a lot. If they have any sense they should have at least waited an election cycle. If I can make a football analogy, this is like drafting a QB who's only started 12 games in his college career high just because he had a good workout at the combine and then turning your franchise over to him. Trust me when I say it isn't going to work.


tyc3, I heard about that on Coast to Coast AM. Appearently it is also possible that when his mother remarried and moved out of the country again, he lost his citizenship under the rules at the time and never followed the proceedure to get it back. I'm highly skeptical about the whole matter, but it would be interesting if it's true he's not technically a US citizen. Also if there was something to this, why hasn't McCain brought it up? Or Rush? Or O'reilly? Or Drudge?

Snowbunny, if I were a rich man, I'd have all the other rich guys unionize and go on strike for a few years. It'd be really funny to see the amount of taxes that washington is getting go down because none of the rich people are earning money and can't pay taxes if they aren't. While I'm thinking about it, the oil companies should also get together and decide to hoarde all the oil because it's bad for the enviroment and not sell it for a few years.

[Snow Bunny]

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Snowbunny, if I were a rich man, I'd have all the other rich guys unionize and go on strike for a few years. It'd be really funny to see the amount of taxes that washington is getting go down because none of the rich people are earning money and can't pay taxes if they aren't. While I'm thinking about it, the oil companies should also get together and decide to hoarde all the oil because it's bad for the enviroment and not sell it for a few years.

Honestly Winterclaw, something most people aren't getting is that a lot of rich people have been hit really hard by the economy.

My extended family is definitively around the 25-40K range. They're all fine, but I can tell you my parents have been hit really hard by the economic crash.

Yes, a lot of kids at my school are well off; in fact, I have several friends whose parents worked at Lehmann, Wachovia, and MStanley. I can tell you that they are panicking right now. One of my best friends has to transfer out because all of her tuition money just vanished over a month.

Most business elite, which are the primary tax payers in this country, simply don't have the money to pay 50% taxes, especially in the wake of the financial crisis.